Non-Pu'erh pressed teas

I’ve asked further in the thread about what changes in pressing a tea into a cake, what the point is, how it improves them, but since it sounds like you might be a good person to ask I’ll also mention that other line of question here. Which teas have you experimented with? Which have you aged? Is that part of the point, or does a freshly pressed cake of a black or white tea (or oolong, or any other) change character relatively immediately for being in that different form?

I haven’t done much experimentation yet, to be honest, so I probably can’t answer those questions too well. From what I’ve tried, I didn’t notice much of a difference with black teas the same way I do with puer mao cha vs cake, but black teas don’t really have the complexity or depth as good puer. They’ve also all been off of purchased/gifted cakes, so I also didn’t try it right after pressing. White tea, same thing more or less. I really think the main advantages for these other teas is the space saving quality and reduced surface contact with air to prevent deterioration.

When I finally get around to doing some experiments it will likely be with some moonlight white at first, which is suitable for aging and takes up a lot of space in loose form. Then it will be some random dian hongs and mao cha that I have in smaller amount that aren’t worth sending out to get pressed. What I’ll do with them after is yet to be sorted out… I’ll definitely do a side by side comparison of the freshly pressed black/white/other tea once I have the time though. I imagine there will be a difference, as there is with puer.

Where did you get a press and wrappers?

From what I understand, only tea that hasn’t been fully oxidized can be expected to age or change somewhat in cake form. Blacks are oxidized to the point where they’re ‘dead’ – the enzymes are almost completely gone. Pressing them is just for storage and/or aesthetic reasons. I’m not yet convinced that the ‘aging’ of black teacakes is anything more than a slower, more controlled, version of what you get when you leave the bag open on loose tea. ;)

Greens and whites (and some oolongs?) aren’t roasted to the point of killing off the enzymes completely, and still contain a fair amount of the moisture in the leaves – enough to ferment over time.

I’m definitely interested in what your experiments result in.

Bought them in Yiwu. I wouldn’t expect to find them many other places :)

I agree – I don’t think there’s any benefit to ageing black teas, just that pressing them can preserve freshness a little longer.

Ageing green teas wouldn’t do anything either though. The main difference between raw puer and green teas are that the kill green stage for raw puer isn’t as complete, leaving some active enzymes to facilitate fermentation. White tea has no kill green step, although it doesn’t age quite the same as puer. Not sure if it still has active enzymes…

@DrewT-MN: only tea that hasn’t been fully oxidized can be expected to age or change somewhat in cake form. Blacks are oxidized to the point where they’re ‘dead’ – the enzymes are almost completely gone.

I believe this assumes facts that are not in evidence.

There seems to be little intentional storage of red tea to make aged red tea, but every so often someone finds old red tea and sells it at a premium, like this: https://www.taiwanteacrafts.com/product/2005-aged-red-jade-black-tea/?v=7516fd43adaa

Then there are remarks like the ones here: http://www.marshaln.com/2011/02/aged-margarets-hope-darjeeling/

Aged roasted oolongs are a thing, and these are teas roasted over charcoal fires, sometimes for several days.

The notion that tea only changes for the good if it’s left “alive” is deeply suspect.

I like to skip when I’m going into a candy store, walking makes me feel like it’s going to be a normal visit…

http://www.yunomi.life/products/kuma-tea-gardens-2014-competition-grade-yabukita-sencha-from-yame-fukuoka

@aardvarkcheeselog It might, I’m going off of what I’ve been able to glean so far.

I think it might be a question of definitions – what is ‘aging’? In Pu’erh, it seems most certainly an aspect of fermentation over time. The same for the moonlight whites and white peonies – it’s a fermentation process that ages the tea.

For teas that are roasted, I would think the aging process must be inherently different. Is it a degassing? Is it some other type of chemical reaction? (molecular structure change/interaction between carbon ions?)

@DrewT-MN

I don’t think you have to play games with definitions. ‘Aging’ is what happens to tea when it changes with the passage of time. Sometimes the results are good, sometimes (easily, predictably) bad.

The term “fermentation” gets tossed around a lot in connection with aging of raw puer, but I am aware of zero evidence that there is anything happening other than the chemistry of air and water acting on once-living material.

@aardvarkcheeselog

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pu-erh_tea

@DrewT-MN

If you can find a primary source that describes evidence of microbial fermentation in the aging of raw (not ripe) puer tea I would be very interested in reading it.

If you think the Wikipedia page has a link to that kind of evidence, you weren’t reading carefully enough.

@aardvarkcheeselog

Perhaps you didn’t read far enough:

“Pu-erh is a microbially fermented tea obtained through the action of molds, bacteria and yeasts on the harvested leaves of the tea plant. It is thus truly a fermented tea, whereas teas known in the west as black teas (known in China as Red teas) have only undergone large scale-oxidation through naturally occurring tea plant enzymes. Mislabelling the oxidation process as fermentation and thus naming black teas, such as Assam, Darjeeling or Keemun, as fermented teas has created endless confusion. Only tea, such as Pu-erh, that has undergone microbial processing can correctly be called a fermented tea.14

Pu-erh undergoes what is known as a solid-state fermentation where water activity is low to negligible. Both endo-oxidation (derived from the tea-leaves enzymes themselves) and microbial catalysed, exo-oxidation of tea polyphenols occurs. The microbes are also responsible for metabolising the carbohydrates and amino acids present in the tea leaves.141516 Although the microbes responsible have proved highly variable from region to region and even factory to factory, the key organism found and responsible for almost all pu-erh fermentation has been identified in numerous studies as Aspergillus niger, with some highlighting the possibility of ochratoxins produced by the metabolism of some strains of A.niger having a potentially harmful effect through consumption of Pu-erh tea.17181920 This notion has recently been refuted through a systematic chromosome analysis of the species attributed to many East Asian fermentations, including those that involve Pu-erh, where the authors have reclassified the organisms involved as Aspergillus luchuensis.21 It is apparent that this species does not have the gene sequence for coding ochratoxin and thus Pu-erh tea should be considered safe for human consumption.22"

The preponderance of opinions – and the sources cited – is that it is microbial fermentation, and the creation of ripe pu’erh uses a process in which to accelerate that fermentation. I’m content with the evidence and writeups from other sources that are far more educated about tea than I. I’d be interested to see what information you have to the contrary.

That is the prevailing theory for the aging of raw puerh teas, microbial fermentation, but you cannot really prove it one way or the other unless you have a scientific lab that can measure the bacteria in raw puerh tea. I personally don’t have a better explanation for the aging of raw puerh teas.

@DrewT-MN:

Yes, I did read far enough. In fact, amazingly enough, I was already familiar with the entry!

I am looking for primary sources: the ones cited in fns 14, 15, and 16 in that slab of text you pasted would qualify, if I could read more than the abstracts: except that they seem to all be about ripe puer.

I did actually trawl through the footnotes on that article again after your remark yesterday, to make sure I hadn’t missed something. The single source that 1) I was able to get a partial copy of and 2) is related to aging of raw tea was Tian, Zhu, et. al. “Bacterial and Fungal Communities in Pu’er Tea Samples of Different Ages” (J. Food Sci. 78:8, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23957415), which remarks (after citing some papers about the populations of microbes found in the piling step of ripe puer production)

“… the dynamics of the microbial community during aging/storage and the relationship between microbial dynamics and the quality of Pu’er tea remain unknown.”

Raw puer tea, aged white tea, aged red tea, and aged oolong teas might be affected by microbial growth in the tea during storage, but there is no reason to think so as far as I can tell from reliable sources available to me.

I am not going to beat this dead horse any more in this thread: if you want the last word, you’re welcome to it.

Microbial fermentation is however a convenient but not the only explanation for the aging or raw puerh where it is something you want to drink at forty years of age. Black tea is not something you want to drink at forty years of age. Admittedly there are other possible explanations for the aging of raw puerh but this is the prevailing theory. For some reason it is still good to drink when other teas are just become meh.

Yea, I get that they likely won’t age well. I do wonder how long they’ll age/store for.

YunnanSourcing does offer a purple w snow chrysanthemums, and a unmarked white-wrapper fengqing dian hong. Did I miss one?

It’s possible they have sold out of some but I bought four or five different ones from them maybe three months ago.

Properly stored black tea cakes (very low humidity) will definitely develop for a good 5-10 years. Same with most other non-pu cakes as well. As long as moisture is very low they will definitely age.

Moonlight white will also age very well. Similar to a raw but only if moisture is kept low.:)

If you look through Yunnan Black Teas on www.yunnansourcing.com you will still find a couple more black tea cakes.

I did find the "SPRING 2013 “HONG YUN” YI WU MOUNTAIN WILD ARBOR BLACK TEA CAKE" you reviewed, which looks interesting. The others were whites.

I hadn’t looked closely at them. They were listed under black tea. Says they were processed like a black tea in some ways though. I’m not sure if I bought them. I have several of their black tea cakes yet to drink. I may not be able to identify them at all if they are no longer on the website. I can’t read the Chinese on the wrappers.

The one from Whhite2Tea looks highly amusing at the least. From the Great A&P Tea Company. That company went out of business last year although had not been a tea company for many years. A lot of people lost their jobs when they went out of business including me. It also was part of this month’s tea club so I should get one in the mail soon.

Had to do some googling on that one. Learned something new. spasiba.

Thanks for your help!

I haven’t listed the Mandala, Tealyra, and Shang offerings because they seem to fall more into the pu’erh category – they are processed more in the pu’erh style and are fermenting over time. I figured these semi-pu’erh(?) needed some debate on whether to be listed or not.

I’m curious as to how long a heat-dried and pressed cakes like these will last. YunnanSourcing has ‘Drunks’ from 2011, which seems an awful long time for standard black tea – pressed or not. However their 2013 is very tasty…