DongBei said

Is the mold on heicha (AKA "golden flowers") safe?

It seems that most, if not all, of the pressed heicha here in China is marketed for its mold, literally translated as “golden flowers.” Is this mold actually safe? I’ve always heard that in other contexts mold is terrible and should be avoided.

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Apparently “golden flowers” is a very recognizable type of mold and (presumably) a non-toxic one. All the information I could find on the subject said that as long as that’s the only type of mold present you’re okay (do your own research to verify this and make sure you’re identifying the mold correctly, though). The reason you’re normally supposed to avoid food with mold is that many types of mold (including some yellow molds) are toxic or produce mycotoxins or whatever, including some/most/all of the ones normally found on food. And even if one of the molds you found on your food wasn’t toxic it would normally be impossible to tell unless you’re some kind of mold identification expert.

So yes, mold on tea often means something has gone wrong, and not all mold or even all yellow mold is okay to drink, but many people have consumed “golden flowers” and survived. I think if I could speak Chinese I would have a much better chance of accurate research on this topic, though. Lol.

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AllanK said

The thing they don’t tell you about the golden flowers is they are not safe for everyone. The golden flowers are created using either wheat flour, barley flour, or rice flour and it’s impossible to find out which. I will not buy fuzhuan or any golden flower tea because of this. I think the mold is considered safe but if you have any form of gluten allergy it is unsafe unless you can determine they used rice flour. But since the companies who make it won’t tell you this they are all unsafe for the gluten intolerant. It should be noted that Scott at Yunnan Sourcing has actually put up warning labels on his Fuzhuan about this. In short the mold is probably safe but contains gluten.

TeaLife.HK said

They use the flour as a susbtrate for the eurotium cristatum, the same way we use sugar to get yeast started. This is a modern thing, I believe, and was never done in the past. I have no allergies to gluten so I’m not in the least worried about the tiny bit of flour needed to get the tea cooking!

AllanK said

Some are made with rice flour and are fine. The problem is that the Chinese have no concept of gluten being something that some people can’t have at all so they don’t tell you which Fuzhuan is made with rice flour. I imagine they use what ever is cheapest and most available.

TeaLife.HK said

Just checked out the incidence of celiac disease and it is 0.5-1% worldwide. You’re right, though, most companies in developing countries aren’t going to warn people about gluten at this point. I have no issues with gluten, so I’m not too worried about the tiny amounts of flour used to innoculate fu zhuan, but for someone with celiac disease that would definitely be of concern.

AllanK said

Another reason it is not on the radar in China is celiacs disease is incredibly rare in China if it exists at all. It is generally considered a genetic disease specific to people of European descent although there are exceptions to this. If doctors in China were diagnosing people with celiacs with any consistency there would be a difference concerning gluten in China but it is unknown in China. On top of Celiacs disease there is the diagnosis of Gluten Sensitivity which is very similar to Celiacs disease and is treated in the same manner.

ZhenTea said

Could you please suggest some links about producing “golden flowers” with flour? I’d like to read about it.

AllanK said

Actually I can suggest a book. It was in The Art and Craft of Tea by Joseph Wesley. As he is an expert and I am not I trust he is correct. It is also a very good book if you want to buy it. I am sure Scott at Yunnan Sourcing didn’t put warnings up on his site because of my email alone. I am sure he confirmed the fact. I don’t even know exactly how it’s done. I just know from what Joseph Wesley said they start the Golden Flowers by using one of three flours, wheat, barley, or rice flour.

AllanK said

To quote Joseph Wesley, page 45. "To make Anhua Fu Zhuan, the tea leaf must be inoculated with the “golden flowers” during the heaping process. This is done in one of three ways: the spores are dry mixed with a food such as rice flour, barley flour, or wheat flour and then mixed with the dry tea leaves and stems; the mold spores are mixed with a saline solution that is sprayed on the dry leaves and stems; or the mold spores are mixed directly with the dry leaves and stems."

ZhenTea said

Interesting. I wonder what his source is. “Golden flowers” (冠突散囊菌) naturally appears in Fuzhuan tea, some soil, certain wood chips, etc. It doesn’t occur on grain naturally. But I do know there’s something that looks like “golden flowers” and likes grain – aspergillus flavus (黄曲霉素). Thought both fungi looks similar (to us who are not bacteria experts), they are fundamentally different things and it’s crucial to differentiate one from the other when buying Fuzhuan (or any other teas that claim to have “golden flowers”). Aspergillus flavus appears on grains or nuts and it exists on teas when it’s not properly stored, like mold (I assume mold has a negative implication in English).

In Anhua area, it’s quite easy to produce “golden flowers” nowadays with the right humidity and temperature. The tea doesn’t need special things to add to the batch because the spores exist in the room after years of production. This is how most factories in Anhua area produce “golden flowers”, no matter it’s big or small factories, though the taste of the tea varies depending on the factory. People do use mixed solution to spray the leaves when they try to create “golden flowers” on Pu’er or Tie Guan Tie. But because they are not the material that “golden flowers” prefer, it’s hard to keep them alive/active on those teas.

I’ve never seen or heard people using grain mix to produce “golden flowers”. I also confirmed it with our friend from Bai Xi Sha, the oldest and the biggest Fuzhuan factory in China. He was surprised by the grain way as well.

We are planning on going to Anhua this fall, and this topic makes me realize that it’s definitely worth the trip. We will be sharing more details about how Fuzhuan is made and hopefully we can clear up some myths.

AllanK said

Since I cannot ever really confirm how a particular Fuzhuan was made and the method comes from a source I trust, I simply have to play it safe and not drink Fuzhuan. I have considered buying a gluten test kit for the one or two Fuzhuans I bought before learning of this method. When I asked Scott at Yunnan Sourcing about this he attempted to find out from his suppliers if any of them were made using wheat flour. He was unable to get any information out of his suppliers. If you are really interested in this you might consider emailing Joseph Wesley about it. I’m sure he can confirm his sources that he used for his book.

DongBei said

@ZhenTea I spoke with BaiShaXi earlier today (I assume that’s the company you were referring to) and they said they don’t offer any teas that are pesticide free. Are you aware of that? It’s interesting, because most Chinese companies will say they have at least some "没打农药的” or offer the test results that show extremely low levels of pesticides in their product.

Any experience with the pesticide levels in BaiShaXi teas?

ZhenTea said

@DongBei Sorry for my typos. It’s Bai Sha Xi. I don’t know if their tea is pesticide free or not. We don’t carry their products so I didn’t dig too much, though I drink their tea personally. But I know some of their products have organic certification and they export to over 80 countries and passed all the tests they need to pass. And based on my experience in their factory, I don’t have much concern about the safety of the tea. But I think asking them directly for test result is more reliable than my words when it comes to the pesticide levels in their teas.

DongBei said

They said they don’t offer anything organic. Mind providing a link to an organic product they sell? Also, what would a factory tell you about the use of pesticides on the original product?

Also, re: the results of pesticide tests, they’re very opaque (unlike most larger vendors I’ve dealt with. This is their reply:
符合国家所有标准, 不单独发任何检测报告哦。  如果您觉得不放心,可以拿去检测/:^_^ 
Translation: We pass all national standards. We don’t send out any individual test result reports. If you’re worried, you can take it to get tested.

What an absurd answer.

ZhenTea said

Haha, did you talk to their sales person on Taobao.com? That style of wording is so taobao. Anyways, I haven’t bought their teas yet. All I have is the samples from them, so I’m not sure which are organic and which are not. I’ll take a look at their website and get back to you if I find anything organic labeled.

ZhenTea said

@DongBei I went to their website (http://www.bsxtea.com/). Because it was quite difficult to load the page, I just had a quick look at few famous products and none of those that I checked was labeled organic.

DongBei said

Their website says they don’t offer any organic products either (do a search for 有机 or even 绿色 – which is more like “natural” foods in the states). I’ll take their salesman’s word for it as well. If they had it, they would want to sell it. Mind citing your source on their organic products?

ZhenTea said

Their head of the Huadong (华东) area. Honestly, there are lots of Fuzhuan companies/factories. I mentioned Bai Sha Xi earlier just for the “golden flowers” process discussion. I have no intention to recommend or sell you any of their products.

ZhenTea said

@DongBei One thing you said caught my eyes: “If they had it, they would want to sell it.” I assume you mean “organic”. I’m collecting topics for an article regarding things people might be confused when learning about Chinese tea. There will be a bit comparison between western and Chinese perceptions about tea. I think what you said would make a great section in the article. Do you mind I mention your word a bit in my article?

Sorry about posting it here. I tried to direct message you but Steepster doesn’t let me.

DongBei said

Yeah go for it. But I think I’m going to disagree based on my experience here in China. People regularly claim their tea is "没打农药、化肥的” (this is what most westerners mean when they say “organic”) they also offer pictures of their 农残检测报告 to prove there are no pesticides.

ZhenTea said

I agree, but I’d like to expand a bit based on it as well.

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If you want a very dense read on Eurotium cristatum, the golden flowers on fuzhuan, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1874390012001413 and http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960894X12007007 it also has the name Aspergillus cristatus

Doing a bit of digging I also found these: http://tealab.ahau.edu.cn/docs/2016-03/20160310093927464814.pdf
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02463921 (if you want to pay for it, but the abstract has some interesting tid-bits)
http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-ZGWY201107009.htm which has a lot of links to other studies
http://www.fshn.chhs.colostate.edu/research/IHL/KellerFRI.pdf

It seems to be safe, but I personally avoid it because I am not a fan of the taste of the few I have tried.

TeaLife.HK said

Eurotium cristatum makes for VERY smooth tea, IMO. We find it on pu erh in HK when the humidity gets high. It makes me really, really hungry, which is probably why it’s used to boost poultry yields. I bet it would work to beef up livestock too (forgive the pun)

I can certainly believe it, granted it could be that the couple I have had were just not quality (two were tolerable, one was just heinous) but I did give my stash of the fuzhuan to a friend and he thought it was the best thing ever, so it could just be one of those things that do not work for me.

I do certainly love it on a microscopic level, the sporing stage of Eurotium cristatum is beautiful, reminds me of some species of slime molds I found in the very wet forest of Minnesota.

I might be a bit of an armchair mycologist in my spare time. ;)

TeaLife.HK said

We follow each other on IG…nice having a little text convo with you on here on e. cristatum!

Which fu bricks did you get? I’ve only tried modern, high end CNNP stuff, which is a lot more expensive and made with much better base material than the standard stuff. I’ve also had fu tea from Shaanxi, which is supposedly the original fu tea, and wow, that stuff was good. I have a friend out there who pretty much only deals in fu cha from Shaanxi, and she really knows her stuff. She sent me a bunch of really lovely samples.

I’ve never had the chance to check out e. cristatum under a microscope, but I’d love to do that some time. I’ve just had spores all over my fingers from handling my brick in the summer months! ;) I should probably check on it soon to see how it’s doing. I actually have it stored with my sheng, so if it’s fruiting, that’s a good indication that my pu is at the right kind of humidity level too.

I had two samples from Jing Wei Fu Tea Company, those were the ok ones. The one I had that I loathed was the 2008 Fu Zhuan from Puerhshop, I will say this its favor, the fungal bloom was beautiful! I spent so much time looking at it that at least it brought me joy then. I wish I still had access to a decent microscope, fungi can be so gorgeous on that level…and sometimes it is the only way to properly ID those pesky little brown mushrooms!

That is very awesome, I do need to try more not puerh heicha, my experiences with that have been limited and fairly mixed.

And it is very nice to have a convo with you as well!

TeaLife.HK said

Heicha gets much less appreciation than it deserves, although that is changing fast and prices are rising rapidly. I bought some liu bao in Kota Kinabalu, Borneo, Malaysia a few years ago. The guy charged me like $60 for a small bag of 80s stuff, and I felt like I’d gotten ripped off. I now know he sold me absolutely exceptional tea. It is DELICIOUS. No wet storage aromas at all, and it has an exotic flavor I can’t put into words. I’ll have to sample it again sometime soon and write a description of it. I haven’t had any liu bao that good from anyone else (yet). I have a friend flying me over 500g of good 2003 liu bao from China. I had it sent to his place and he had a bunch of car and motorcycle parts sent to my place. I should send more stuff to his place to bring over, since his stuff’s taking up a lot of room at home. :D

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Cwyn said

It is not a mold, it is fungus. And very tasty, I might add.

If you want to pick nits, it should be pointed out that while “mold” (or “mould” for that matter) is not a term to be found in modern mycological glossaries, the common definition is a fungus that forms hyphae but not in the form of dense differentiated tissues. So I say it’s a mold.

TeaLife.HK said

Interesting stuff there. Now I know what a ‘mold’ really is!

Cwyn said

Mold doesn’t exist in the glossary so that is the reason to use it?

I think it is important to distinguish because in American popular thinking the word mold means bad, unhealthy, possible risk of death. This popular notion got even worse with the black mold epidemic in newer construction housing in the 1990s-early 2000s. Most discussions of good mold vs bad simply go past people. They hear mold and can’t erase the idea of bad.

TeaLife.HK said

Cwyn definitely has a point too. Those of us who appreciate things like blue cheese and pu erh understand that mold can be something totally desirable, too, even if we’re using nomenclature bounded around by laypeople, and all of the species we’re concerned with fall under the fungi umbrella. As a species, we aren’t evolved enough yet to understand that pretty much everything on the planet lies on its own continuum. We drift toward the poles on everything because our brains often can’t get around the fact that there’s a lot more going on. Fortunately not everyone is a total numpty (there I go drifting towards a pole)

> Mold doesn’t exist in the glossary so that is the reason to use it?

How about “I cannot prove that ‘mold’ is a ‘correct’ term (where ‘correct’ has to do with proper use of precisely defined terminology), because it is not part of the vocabulary for technical discussions of fungi. Nonetheless, it has the commonly accepted meaning of ‘fungus that forms colonies which look very like the yellow flowers.’”

While nobody goes around offering Roquefort or Stilton (or Wisconsin Blue Cheese) for sale as “moldy cheese,” I have not heard of an effort to rebrand the characteristic fungus as something other than ‘mold.’ Did I miss something?

Cwyn said

Eurotium cristatum is fungus, it is scientifically classified as such. It is closer to a mushroom than a mold. There are several types of eurotium fungi that may be on Fu brick tea.

http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-CYKK199102013.htm

http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-CYKJ200501002.htm

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ZhenTea said

“Gold flowers” have been extensively studied in China and Japan and in those studies they were found to have numerous health benefits. “Gold flowers” occurred naturally on Fuzhuan tea, but they became a more desired element of the tea, producers have developed methods to encourage growth of the “gold flowers”. This involves spreading the bacteria manually to a new batch and providing good conditions for it to flourish.

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ZhenTea said

Just realized that I got sidetracked by “golden flowers”… There’s something very important I forgot to mention that “golden flowers” only naturally exist on Fuzhuan, not all heicha. There’s a company just officially released their pu’er with “golden flowers” this year. It was a big deal in China’s tea circle. But other heicha still don’t have it yet. “Golden flowers” on Tie Guan Yin is also developed, but not yet released to the market.

Because “golden flowers’” prominent health benefits especially on type 2 diabetes, the price of Fuzhuan (with “golden floweres”) went up so much that some people started to call all the similar stuff on heicha “golden flowers” in order to sell the tea for better price. So if you see (or are told) any “golden flowers” in other heicha, it’s just mold and you definitely should avoid it.

Cwyn said
Golden Flowers are a fungus, Eurotium cristatum, one of a class of fungi that appear on Fu Zhuan. As you noted, it is often inoculated onto the tea. The germ is grown on rice or wheat and used as a starter. You can buy quantities of the actual flowers, they are used in Chinese medicine. Fungi will grow on a proper food source, like a grain or tea. As Fu Zhuan can be inoculated, so can other teas.

Not saying that some tea sellers wouldn’t try to pass off mold as fungi, but you can’t automatically assume that. Inoculation is a common practice.

If you are going to hand out advice on “mold,” get your facts straight about the difference between Eurotium cristatum fungi, bacteria and mold.

AllanK said

I would have my doubts on their beneficial effects on Type 2 diabetes. I wouldn’t suggest a diabetic stop using insulin and start drinking Fuzhuan. Unfortunately, tea, while it may be very healthy, doesn’t cure anything.

ZhenTea said

I wouldn’t suggest stop using medicine only drinking tea either. I was just stating the result from one of the “golden flowers” studies.

AllanK said

There have also been claims of puerh tea being a cure all. A variety of websites have suggested it. Unfortunately this is not true either.

ZhenTea said

Agree. Tea is just tea, though it has health benefits. There’s all-purpose cleaner but no all-purpose tea. Haha!

TeaLife.HK said

It’ll help, but it won’t work as a substitute for insulin. Coupled with weight loss through diet and exercise, however, tea might help push you back over the borderline. Down here in Hong Kong, sheng pu erh is considered great for weight loss. Considering how much caffeine young sheng has, it’ll certainly help things along.

I feel e. cristatum might even lead to weight gain as it makes me voraciously hungry. ;D

DongBei said

That’s interesting, here on the mainland shou pu’er is touted as having weight loss benefits! It’s also marketed for its stomach benefits

TeaLife.HK said

Shu pu erh has actually been proven to help with weight loss:

http://www.ergo-log.com/puerh.html

“Previously published human studies have shown that Pu-Erh reduces the concentration of ‘bad cholesterol’ LDL, triglycerides and that it also reduces weight. [Nutr Res. 2008 Jul;28(7):450-6.] [Ann Nutr Metab. 2008;53(1):33-42.]”

TeaLife.HK said

Additionally sheng is thought of as warming and shu as cooling—I’ve read that here in HK, too much shu is believed to cause an imbalance and even cause depression.

AllanK said

I have seen a story about shou puerh containing two compounds that are beneficial to weight loss. But drinking shou puerh alone will not make you lose weight. If you combine it with diet and exercise it may help. But this is far from truly proven. It is a theory.

AllanK said

JayinHK, that article was interesting. Now if they could reproduce their findings with a larger test group. I think it said something like 25 people in the test group. Unfortunately that is too small a sample group to be definitive. If they reproduced the study with five or ten thousand people, that would be impressive.

TeaLife.HK said

I agree that the sample size was far too small!

AllanK said

Also, while I have heard there are compounds in ripe puerh tea beneficial to weight loss the source of that information is in my view questionable, Dr Oz. He may have valid science behind his claims but he is still controversial and considered a bad source of information by many. However, I doubt he is wrong about the basic information, it’s just his claims that you have to question. If you Google Dr OZ Puerh Tea you will come up with two videos about it.

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DongBei said

@JayinHK what is the “CNNP stuff” you referred to? Do you have a full name?

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