Verdant really is doing it again - Selling tea from a 1,300 tea tree....
Here’s the tea in question -
http://verdanttea.com/teas/qianjiazhai-2016-single-tree-sheng-puer-1300-year-tea-tree/
What’s really baffling to me is that they didn’t learn anything from last years controversy. With all of the evidence debunking everything about last years 1,800 y/o tea tree tea, and with all of the proof that they weren’t being 100% honest, why would they try this again?
Im curious as to what you think.
Didn’t last years 1800 tea sell out? I think they learned LOTS… that people will still buy it.
Because somehow 1,300 y/o is more believable than 1,800 y/o :p
Like you said, people will still buy it.
And all of the controversy is probably a good thing. No publicity is bad publicity and all…
" No publicity is bad publicity and all…"
Especially when it comes to tea where we suffer from lack of exposure anyway..
But its still controversy. If I had my own tea company, I’d rather see it get publicity through good product and by good deed. Not by controversy.
Look at Yunnan Sourcing for example – they sell tea, and ended up becoming a staple in shopping for puer. Scott got his popularity by being a good at running a company, not by bathing it in questionable marketing and questionable products.
I agree, but a lot of people simply don’t care and will do whatever it takes to make a buck, as we’ve seen with the recent fiasco on here
I actually tried the stuff today . . . all the while scoffing at the claim. In all honestly, really good sheng. But I’m still not buying the gushu claim. No matter how many GPS coordinates to the actual tree they post in the profile.
@Babble – Earth and flowers. So . . . earthflowers (?). Like, imagine a fragrant mushroom started blooming a rose . . . right before it pummeled your nose with mind-control spores.
If you acknowledge that their claims in gushu arent truthful, then wouldn’t that make you question any other aspect about their tea?
As an example: If I go to a restaurant and find a hair in my food more than once, I’m going to question the cleanliness of the restaurant and how my food is prepared.
@TheOolongDrunk – True story . . . one time I found a hair in a sample of some REALLY expensive white tea. I still wrote that I found a hair in that white tea, but that didn’t change the fact that it was a REALLY good white tea.
I’m the kinda of guy that’ll pick out the fly from the soup, shrug, and continue eating the soup.
In short, I believe it is all bullshit. But I also know their bullshit still tastes nicely nutty.
This is what got me so confused, its REALLY good tea, and Im new and know im new, but just tasting it , its really good tea, they dont need to make stuff up to sell it, and the tree in the picture is lovely.
They should just say, its big, its old, it tastes good, buy it!
@Ken
That’s the lesson that they should have learned. But instead they repeat same old mistakes. I would have respected them substantially more if they had learned something from the previous controversy. I guess not.
@Ken – Totally agree. They should just say, “This shit tastes good, who cares where it comes from?!” Like a few other puerh vendors we know and love.
@OolongDrunk – Totally agree with that sentiment as well. But controversy tastes so delicious.
unfortunately I sampled the sample pack I got of the single tree 1300 year shen before I started doing tasting notes.
But I do have this one and Ill do some tasting notes for this tomorrow for anyone who is curious, this one is a much more reasonable 800 years old.
http://verdanttea.com/teas/qianjiazhai-2016-zun-sheng-puer-800-year-trees/
that was supposed to be sarcastic, but I guess it didnt come out right.
Yeah Im thinking 200-300 as well. They are pretty big and he talks about his grandfather tending them, so this actually does make sense that its about 200.
@Ken – Yep, totally missed the sarcasm – sorry. And, yep, I’m going with your bet. 200! That’s our final offer!
What we need is another comparison tasting.
Queue Cheapy W2T’s Little Walk vs Fake Aged Tree overpriced Verdant cake back in 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH42mNCSSl0
It can be good sheng, but there is plenty of good sheng without outlandish claims, for much less.
Same time, I refuse to give these scammers money to try, and horrified with the MeiLeaf stuff people went nuts to buy to see if it was real. Can’t win really. Best to support by bring the truth out and not buying any.
I agree, I won’t spend with these vendors. I was fortunate that someone sent me a sample of some MeiLeaf shu to check out.
I can do a comparison tasting between W2T’s basics cake vs 800(supposed) sheng. The basic’s cake should be here this week. Thats actually a pretty good comparison. The basics cakes are 4 for 40 (100 gram cakes), and the 100 grams of sheng was 19 with sale and coupon.
The one defense I will give them is I do not think they are overpriced. Their prices are right in line with what Ive seen elsewhere.
I just dont get it, they actually do most everything else right, their tea is good, their prices are in the normal range for tea sellers in the US, the shipping is very very fast, they dont need to make stuff up.
@ken
Ah that is true. The Verdant cake is UNDERPRICED violently. If it was real they will need to back up the dump truck as it is worth a lot of money, not the laughable price they are charging (which is priced cheap enough for someone to buy, but a little expensive to make it real to a pu noob). Being on par on say Little Walk or Basics makes it over priced in terms of quality.
To put into perspective. That 2016 Verdant Cake is priced at $0.49 a gram. A close comparable in price would be W2T’s Bosch, BitterLeaf Mint Condition 2016 Fall Bohetang, and Crimson Lotus Tea’s Midas Touch. Really good puer to compete with.
Aha I have crimson lotus 2016 hidden song, thats 36$ for a 200 gram cake. And I have the 800 sheng which is 19$ for 100 grams. This is comparing 18 with 19$ for 100 grams.
I can do a comparative tasting of the two of those on thursday. But do understand this would be coming from a total pu’erh noob.
I have an order coming in from Yunnan sourcing, but Im not sure when its going to arrive.
It doesn’t surprise me that you say it is good tea. I tried some of the other “Ancient Tree Tea” of theirs through a Liquid Proust group buy and they were good. And as to why they did it again. Very simple they were able to fool enough people into paying more than the leaves were actually worth by making false claims.
They have 124 cakes in stock at this time. Unsure how many they started with. 150? 200?
I’m sure someone with more pu grow and processing know how can figure out whether that is viable to have that much material. I recall an argument from the last round went back to a really old tree that was picked and didn’t get much material.
But that doesn’t address age. LOOK GUYS WE FOUND A BIG TREE! It must be old! (then there’s some bugger hiding a bucket of miraclegro in the background).
I’m not surprised though. These sellers are selling some story fantasy. People want some grand tale and farmers with free goat donations. Not reality that its a farm with lots of garbage on the ground and people crapping in the fields.
To add to that last part, a lot of these farms have chickens running everywhere and most of the villagers don’t wear clothes.
You’re completely right thought. Verdant is selling a fantasy.
Maybe it is a really big tree, maybe they finally crossed a tea tree with a giant redwood and oh yeah they did it 1300 years ago. A lot more leaves on a 1300 year old giant redwood if you could make tea out of it. Just as likely as Verdant finding enough 1300 year old Gushu to make a couple hundred cakes out of.
Plus if Verdant did this they could also claim to have discovered America before Columbus or the Vikings, who knows. Just as likely that the Chinese thirteen hundred years ago discovered America than verdant having tea that old.
For those interested, here’s their back story on the old trees: http://verdanttea.com/qianjiazhai-old-puer-tea-tree-yunnan-ancient-tea-trees-qian-nian-gu-shu/
In a nutshell, their information comes from what the locals tell them about the age of the trees as well as some rough estimations, not unlike what Mei leaf relies on:
“…In the context of Qianjiazhai they seem like young trees, but most are already older than prized Old Tree Shui Xian stock in Wuyishan. These trees can be dated precisely because local residents can remember when the trees were seedlings, or heard stories from their grandparents about when the trees were young….These trees are dated through a combination of looking at family histories and measuring trunk width and tree height and comparing against known examples, or by looking at trees that have died or been cut down in the same grove and counting their rings.”
As far as the price goes, they admit that these are not pedigreed like the government protected old trees and thus don’t command the high price:
“…There is some resentment among many in Qianjiazhai that only trees verified by outsiders are recognized by the international community, as Chinese researchers have been studying and cataloging the biodiversity of Yunnan for years…Luckily, there are people like Master Zhou and other members of the Zhenyuan Cooperative documenting the locations of these old trees, acilitating exchange between remote villages and farmers, and helping local people find a market for their old tree harvests..”
My take on all this is I don’t believe Verdant is out to deceive. They admit the tree ages are unverified and aren’t charging obscenely for the tea. I understand where they are coming from about the age of the trees but I share the same skepticism others have. They are taking the farmers on their word, which seems to be more folklore than science. I’m sure these trees are old, maybe a few hundred years tops, anything beyond that I take with a big grain of salt in the absence of any empirical or historical evidence.
You make a good point, and I respect your opinion as I agree to most of it. However, what bothers me is that Verdant does two things that they know they can do different on -
~ Verdant knows that these claims of tea tree age are bogus, so why even use it as an advertising point in your tea? Knowing that the information is largely false, then that makes me question their integrity as a company because they willingly push falsehoods onto their customers.
~ The other thing that bothers me about it is that they used the age of the tree as a major selling point. Like, its one of the tea’s main features and that’s how Verdant advertises it.
In my mind, theres no excuse for pushing falsehoods onto your customers, even when you know better. It’s not like they’re ignorant.
Actually I think it’s the opposite. Their blog posts show they clearly believe the trees are really that old. They trust what their sellers are telling them is true. Ditto for Mei Leaf. So I don’t feel either company is knowingly dishonest. They naively trust the people who grow their tea.
But I agree with your second point. Given the controversy, they need to add a disclaimer about the age. Just say the tea comes from trees believd to be X years old, but not verified or something to that effect.
I disagree. I don’t think it’s the opposite at all. They have been told and shown repeatedly why there is no way the tree is that old and can produce that amount of tea. However, it didn’t seem to affect their sales – so they are going with what works. For me, it comes down to one of two things and either one of those things is a deal breaker for me doing business with them: 1. They really and truly don’t know – despite ample evidence being given to them about why it is simply not possible and and they believe their vendor despite fairly overwhelming evidence – in that case it tells me they don’t know and refuse to learn enough about the tea they sell to be a responsible vendor or 2. They know they are flat out lying but since it doesn’t appear to affect their business they intend to just keep doing it. Neither scenario makes me feel like I should reward them with my hard earned dollars. I can’t honestly see another scenario, but if you can and you have no issues with either of the above – it’s your money. However, I would also point out there are PLENTY of more honest vendors who sell great tasting tea. A really easy fix for them would be to simply not make those ridiculous claims and let their tea speak for itself like the reputable vendors do. They chose to go another way. And BTW, I myself have never had any puer from them that was any better than medicore.
“There is some resentment among many in Qianjiazhai…” so he’s trying to guilt customers into believing his claims? lol
…if his claims are already in question, how can anyone believe this is true too?
I’m just lurking up out of about a year’s inactivity on Steepster to address this quote from Verdant: “These trees can be dated precisely because local residents can remember when the trees were seedlings, or heard stories from their grandparents about when the trees were young….”
That is not how tree dating works, and is anything BUT precise. What a joke. Apparently fish tales equate to accurate and honest scientific and historical knowledge now. Go Verdant Go. If you can’t change the lie, change your customers’ perception of it, right? Blame the villagers if it’s innacurate! You’re just the messenger, after all. Not like you’re making a living by hyping up tea or anything. Oh wait.
I’m just remembering all the reasons why I hardly involve myself in the tea community anymore. Eesh!
I think I can shed some light on part of why people continue to buy this stuff – ‘Commitment and Consistency’. I take no credit for these observations; I learned about this from the book “Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion” (Robert Cialdini), which I can highly recommend.
As an example from the book, car salesmen have a trick they use to get customers to commit to purchases when they are doing a trade-in. The salesperson gives the customer a too good to be true price on the trade-in, and the buyer jumps on the opportunity and commits to the sale. Later, as the final details of the sale are being written up, the salesperson “talks to their manager” and profusely apologizes that the trade-in cannot be done at the originally stated price, but instead offers the blue-book value, which to the buyer seems fair. The catch is, by the time the blue-book price is discussed, the buyer already feels committed to the sale, coming up with a whole slew of reasons why they still want to make the purchase, in spite of the fact that their original reason to purchase has been removed.
Something similar happens in situations like this. Maybe you already bought other teas from Verdant in the past, and are committed to the fact that Verdant is a good seller. Maybe you bought some of their 1800 year old tea before you could have known better, and rather than admit that you made a mistake, you stick to your commitment and come up with other “reasons” for why you bought the tea (e.g. “Verdant has good customer service” or “the tea still tastes good”).
There is some truth to that. But there is also the fact that they do some things right.
Sales attract people, and they do the on your next sale get 5$ off. Which encourages you to make another purchase to get the 5$ off, there is nothing wrong with this practice inherently.
Also they ship fast, their tea tastes reasonably good. Their white jasmine is particularly good. I actually like it slightly better than Teavivre’s. Their price is reasonable for the quality.
Now that being said, I like Crimson’s lotus hidden song more than I do the Zun Sheng. (which is the one thats supposed to be 800) Same price range, Hidden song is 36 for 200gram and Zun sheng is 19 for 100 grams.
What this means Is when I finish the Zun Sheng, Im not going to reorder it, instead Ill probably order a mini cake of the hidden song. By the same token when I run out jasmine white, Im not going to deny myself that just because they are stupid about other things.
Now when a company gets caught making a mistake or lying, they basically have 2 choices. Either do a complete reversal and look stupid or stick to their guns despite everything. Being a gamer this comes up very often and Ive seen both reactions.
In conclusion I think they are a decent seller that keeps making one stupid mistake over and over, and refuses to admit it. It seems that they are instead slowly backing away from it, by slowly lowering the “Age” of trees till the controversy stops.
Now by the same token, I havent gotten to try any of White2tea or Yunan sourcing’s offerings because the expression ‘slow boat from China’ becomes appropriate.
I was just checking out that page for the tea, and I noticed the varietal for that tea was an Assamica. Is it possible for a tea variety that originated in India to crossover to China 1300 years ago?
Unlikely, the silk road was that time period, but it seems unlikely they would be carrying tea into china. Tea and spices were coming out of china towards what is now Turkey, and gold, silver and wool was going back.
Just to clear it up camellia sinensis assamica is the tea grown in yunnan for Puerh. Locally it may be referred to as Da Ye ( big leaf I think) but genetically it is assamica.
http://www.pakbs.org/pjbot/PDFs/43%281%29/PJB43%281%29281.pdf Is a study of genetic diversity of assamica trees in yunnan.
There are some other varieties of camellia trees used to produce Puerh including ones listed here : http://cloudnineteas.com/yunnans-big-tea-leaf-varietals/. But assamica is pretty dominant I think.
If this were really a single tree sheng a lot fewer bings would be offered. In the last thread about Verdant lying about age it was mentioned that a single tree like that would only produce somewhere around 500g of puerh tea or so. So if it is really all from one tree they should have no more than 5 or 6 100g cakes to sell. I didn’t see a stock estimate but I suspect they have far more tea for sale than a single tree would produce.
I checked their stock just now. As of this morning, they have 124 cakes in inventory
They are also selling a BanZhang sheng for an incredibly low price. Cheaper than you can get the stuff for in my understanding.
http://verdanttea.com/teas/longyuanhao-2016-banzhang-sheng-puer-cake/
They say something about the price of Lao Ban Zhang tea coming down this year but I have not heard this from any other retailer. I know Yunnan Sourcing had a genuine Lao Ban Zhang from 2016 and wanted something like $700 for it. How Verdant can sell one for $75 I can’t fathom unless it is a fake.
Is this really something to get worked up over? Isn’t the age of the tree only really important to people who already know that it is unlikely for tea trees that old producing commercial tea?
The farmers probably told them the age of the tree. Perhaps verdant tea knew that the age was a bit dubious, but chose to advertise the tea as described by the producer. Should they have called the farmer, who might sincerely believe the trees to be 1300 years old, a liar? Perhaps the farmer was told so by his father, and he by his father. Perhaps it was the respectable thing to do to take his word for it. What would the farmer think when he finds out that verdant tea estimates the tree to be 100 or 150 years old at most? So I don’t think it’s fair to call it false advertising or implying that it’s some sort of scam.
You know, in some countries, like India for example, they don’t always keep track of people’s age. So when people get old they often overestimate their age to be some crazy number like 140, of course with a subtle sense of pride. But these people don’t go out of their way to deceive people with these stories…
Same with the 1800 year old puerh controversy… The people of Mei Leaf seem like kind people (I watch their videos on YouTube), so when people ascribed bad motives to them for advertising it as 1800 years old, I felt it was unjust. They don’t seem like those types of people. They even have a video where they taste test a shipment of fresh tea for their shop to see if the tea was the same as they actually paid for, and turned out that they were swindled as the farmer had sent them lower quality tea instead. He was really bummed out about it and said that although the tea wasn’t bad, it was not something that he wanted to sell. Yet these people were accused of tricking people,trying to make easy money.
And I don’t mean to offend anybody by this, but personally I feel that making a fuss over the age of the tea verges on the border of snobbery. Personally I’d be more upset if I got tea from a 20 year old tea tree when I was expecting 100 year old. Because is there really much of a difference after a certain age? At some point the age becomes just a fun little novelty that is too trivial to put too much emphasis on (in my humble opinion). Just enjoy the tea and appreciate the tea for what it is, and with a grain or 2 of salt you can also appreciate the story for what it is.
Wow… That reply turned out a lot longer than I intended. I should put my phone away and go to sleep, haha.
I think the issue most people have, myself included, is that if the age truly isn’t that big of a deal and isn’t what is selling the tea (i.e. it’s just good tea) and this company has been informed numerous times that the claims simply aren’t possible then why not say hey maybe that’s true? At least admit it’s possible.
It could be great tea and be sold exclusively for the quality and no claims about age. Most of us here on Steepster have said we would respect them more and give the tea a chance to just be plain old good tea if they at least conceded some bit that it is possible the overwhelmingly strong amount of evidence is correct and the age they previously claimed is off.
It’s more a moral stance at this point. I don’t care if the label is correct 100%, because let’s be honest a huge amount of tea is incorrectly labeled. The way they ignore honest concerns and refuse to listen to the input of others comes off extremely negatively.Admitting that the question of authenticity exists doesn’t suddenly make the tea horrible. Other vendors transparently admit when they find claims dubious, but still sell out of the teas as they are good in and of themselves.
If you are unknowledgeable about the product you’re selling, get called out on it, and refuse to even open dialogue like an adult you’re just being an asshole and I would rather not give the tea a chance.
THIS.
People have been really piling it on Verdant and Mei Leaf over this tree age thing. It’s one thing to call them out for a mistake, but demonizing a company as a cheat over a single issue is unfair. Perhaps it’s because I’m not a big puerh drinker, but I fail to see what the big deal is about tree age and why a company’s entire reputation should be judged by it. What matters to me are taste, value, and customer service and not the mysticism surrounding tea trees.
I haven’t bought puerh from Verdant nor do I intend to, but I like them as a seller because the quality of their other teas is excellent. One dubious claim about a product they don’t specialize in doesn’t discredit their other positives. We’ve all shopped at places that make skeptical claims about some of their products (Whole Foods, anyone?). How about just filtering out the stuff they don’t get right from the stuff they’re doing well?
It should be noted that these two are hardly the only companies that have fallen victim to the Yunnan tree myths. Similar claims have been made by others ranging from large retailers like Numi to a veritable encyclopedia of tea knowledge like Hojo. I tend to believe Scott as he knows the puerh landscape better than most, and see the others as mistaken, not willfully dishonest.
Also, I respect both of these companies for the vast amount of knowledge they’ve contributed to the tea community. I too subscribe to the Mei leaf Youtube channel and between it and Verdant’s articles, I’ve learned a tremendous amount during my tea journey.
I pretty much learned how to brew from mei leaf’s channel. I was almost ready to give up on tea because I kept getting horribly bitter green teas.
THen I saw his video articles about gong fu and using a gaiwan, I ordered a cheap one off amazon 10$. And suddenly the tea came alive, using 5 grams in a small gaiwan instead 2 or 3 in a large mug totally changed the taste of the tea.
And the thing it wasnt at all wasted, because you just keep steeping it. I actually was spending less money to get better tea, and it changed my perspective on thing.
Im sure other newbies have similar stories, and here is the thing, I havent bought anything from him yet. A few mistakes does not disqualify everything good.
@Dxniel so if Verdant suspected the farmer was lying to him, you’re trying to say it is respectful to repeat the farmer’s lies…to Verdant’s customers? Thus disrespecting Verdant’s customers instead?
Have you heard the expression “trust but verify”?
@alex_fred and @andresito
Andresito, it is not as black and white as it might seem when simply reading words on a forum. Read this, maybe watch the videos I linked and your conscience probably will make you feel too uncomfortable to imply or call the farmers and verdant tea liars and disrespectful to customers.
Alex, you said the following: “It’s more a moral stance at this point. I don’t care if the label is correct 100%, because let’s be honest a huge amount of tea is incorrectly labeled. The way they ignore honest concerns and refuse to listen to the input of others comes off extremely negatively.Admitting that the question of authenticity exists doesn’t suddenly make the tea horrible. Other vendors transparently admit when they find claims dubious, but still sell out of the teas as they are good in and of themselves.”
I agree completely. If the age of a tea tree is a selling point of the tea, yet its uncertain, then it is the moral thing to do to make mention of the uncertainty. But the thing is… THEY DID! Yet everybody rants and raves as if they’re slyly trying to trick people.
Somebody on this thread posted a link to a verdant tea article that talks about these trees, and they are very straight forward: http://verdanttea.com/qianjiazhai-old-puer-tea-tree-yunnan-ancient-tea-trees-qian-nian-gu-shu/. I must say, I merely skimmed through the article. Here are some quotes (not exclusively about the 1300 year old tree):
1: “In the video above, Master Zhou shows us a grove of trees around eight hundred years of age and mentions the difficulty of precisely dating without actually cutting down a tree and counting its rings.”
2: “These trees are dated through a combination of looking at family histories and measuring trunk width and tree height and comparing against known examples, or by looking at trees that have died or been cut down in the same grove and counting their rings.”
3: “We ask Master Zhou how people agree on an age for the tree. He explains that without cutting the tree down, the village has to rely on estimates. They look at the height of the tree and the width of the trunk, which allows them to compare to the height and width of established trees like the 2500 and 2700 year examples verified by scientists. This gives a relative estimate. This 1800 year tree is over ten meters tall from the ground. They can also compare against known ages of nearby trees, like the nearly 2000 year tree that was unfortunately cut down.”
4: “It is at least 10 meters tall, and even from a distance, it towers over the homes of the village that sprang up underneath. (pictures can be seen in the article)”
5: “This 1300 year tree’s age is also estimated based on width and height compared to verified trees to get a close approximation. At over eight meters tall, this tree is a formidable giant.”
6: “These trees can be dated precisely because local residents can remember when the trees were seedlings, or heard stories from their grandparents about when the trees were young.”
7: “Despite the incredible existence of these old tea trees, only a shamefully small handful have been officially measured and documented by botanists, or put under the protection of the national government.” This might explain why the price isn’t as expensive as one might expect.
Also, they have a few videos where they’re conversing with the farmer standing by these trees. It gives better insight to how these farmers date the trees and their approach in general. Its a rough estimate, and by no means meticulously scientific. They aren’t ashamed of this, and neither should they be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgCE93xHjnM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK_y3U0r5a8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rowy5HonGZQ
@Dxniel it’s actually easy to date a tree and count it’s rings without cutting the tree down. You just cut out a very small piece of the tree towards the centre and then count the rings on the piece that you have removed. The fact that they won’t get this very simple procedure done should raise some red flags. I think the best thing to do if you aren’t certain of the age of the tree is to simply not mention it as a selling point.
I see what you mean… But they did say that they had a couple of trees that were supposed to be verified by scientists to be about 2500 years old (they use these trees as a frame of reference to compare and estimate the age of other trees). Perhaps those scientists used the method you talk about. So they themselves say that most of their old trees have not scientifically been verified, but they use the once that have been for reference. Maybe the farmers themselves don’t have the tools or knowledge about how to do those things properly. They say that they live in quite a remote area, so maybe it costs them a lot of money to have a scientist verify the age of all their trees, and they might not see in having more than a few verified since they can use those for reference. But above all, I think that they simply don’t put same same weight of importance on dating things precisely. They just have a rough estimate based on stories from older people in the village and using their eyes to compare the height/width of the trees to verified older trees. They seem to be simple folk who might not even understand the obsession some people have with wanting to know the precise date to these trees. So I don’t think the thought of deception is even on their minds.
You know, my mother is an Ethiopian woman. She comes from a family where they don’t pay strict attention to age, so now we only have an estimate of her age (many immigrants in my country, including my mother, have their official date of birth registered on January 1st because they simply don’t know on what date they were born). So yes, my mother could have her teeth or bones examined, but to what end? Nobody is making a big deal out of her exact age her age, and neither is she. We just go by what her family estimates. Or even in India for example, some old people are estimated by their family to be 140+ years old! These people aren’t deceivers, they’re simple folk to whom the exact age of somebody is nothing but a bit of trivia. I think that there is a similarity here with how these farmers date their trees.
If it wasn’t for these scientific tools and methods, people could just enjoy the tea and stories for what it was. The age of a tree isn’t a magical thing. Not all puerhs are good simply because they’re old. People get hung up on these un-important things and make allegations based on little more than semantics. Or at least, that is how I see it.
a person’s age does not determine the value of a commodity like puerh…or wine…or cigars…or whiskey…totally not a comparable example.
Dxniel said “People get hung up on these un-important things and make allegations based on little more than semantics” and the vendors you’re defending are hung up on the age of the trees they’re marketing (profiting from), making allegations based on little more than speculations and conjecture…so I fail to see your point.
Dxniel – Calling people snobs, because they want to know the age of trees (which can directly determine market value)…seems to me a bit naive. They’re not snobs, they’re trying to validate claims to determine an accurate market price. Ad hominem attacks calling people snobs won’t validate your beloved vendors.
@andresito
I didn’t compare a person’s age to value a commodity (I don’t even know what that means). I meant to compare the attitudes and approach towards determining age. This way people might understand that these estimates don’t have to be guided by a financial incentive… I meant old tea does not necessarily equal good tea, just like a good cover doesn’t equal a good book.
You say:
“…the vendors you’re defending are hung up on the age of the trees they’re marketing (profiting from)”
But THEY ADMIT THAT THE AGE IS UNCERTAIN! Yet you act as if they’re denying any doubt. So no, they are not as hung up about the age as the people who make it into a story of controversy.
I did not call anybody a snob. I don’t think wanting to know the story of a tea makes anybody a snob. I don’t think that wanting to know more about the cover of a book makes anybody a snob either, but base its worth on a cover would be foolish. If the same logic were applied to people it would be called prejudice.
If I came across tea from a 1000+ year old tree I would also like to know the whole story behind it. But the thing is… They gave the whole story behind it! They leave little room for further questions. They say the age is merely an estimate based on local stories and comparisons made with scientifically verified old trees, yet people here approach the matter as if they had made an absolutist claim and you demand an absolutist answer from them. They essentially use claims as “probably”, “maybe”, “according to” and “supposedly”, yet people act as if they’re saying “absolutely 1300 years old”. Casting doubt on the veracity of claims where no claims that claimed to be veracious were given, which is unfair to them.
And you accuse me of ad hominem attacks, when I have attacked nobody. Quote my attack, please. And tell me which ‘hominem’ I directed it at.
It is also quite ironic how you accuse me of logical fallacy while you straw man their claims. If your arguments told the whole story, then you’d be right and I would be agreeing with you. But the fact is that you twist their claims to fit your argument… You say that THEY are the ones hung up on the age on the trees, while it is only people on forums like these, merely to make a profit. You claim that this is their stance, despite the fact that they have a lengthy article that talks about the trees in detail in which they address the uncertainty of these trees. But I guess it is much easier to win debates when you only address half of the counterargument.
PS, I never in my life have ordered any tea from my “…beloved vendor” verdant tea. I perceive unjust accusations, so I feel compelled to defend them.
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