Verdant really is doing it again - Selling tea from a 1,300 tea tree....
Fools! Your arguments are like the twittering of little songbirds. I, Master Zhou, possess a Dōng Hàn era scroll recording the exact date of planting of these trees. It was year 214 AD in your calendar. This scroll is a priceless family relic and you cannot examine it, but its existence alone shall suffice to put an end to this discussion.
If the trees were really 1300 years old as Verdant claims then they would have been planted in the middle of the Táng dynasty (618-907 AD) so your claim of possessing a Dōng Hàn era scroll proving their age is nonsense. The Dōng Hàn (or Eastern Han) dynasty ended in 220 AD, long before these “1300 year old” trees were allegedly planted.
Confucius says: “If you spread around enough bullshit everything becomes Verdant.”
I hate to point this out, that isnt someone from verdant, that is someone being rather… comical on the forums.
I can’t believe the amount of mental gymnastics some people do to justify this…
I dont think people need justification to overlook a mistake or a problem. Im an avid video gamer, I would never ever play a game if I boycotted it every time a game company lied to us.
Now that being said, Im probably not going to reorder the young zun sheng from them, not because of the lying, but because I like crimson lotus’s tea better at the same price range.
And by the same token Im not going to stop ordering their jasmine silver needle because I like it better than teavivre’s jasmine silver needle at the same price range.
I just feel that I will buy the best product I can at the price range, whoever sells it.
That’s some nice mental gymnastics right there indeed…
You can say all you want about the game industry, but I’m sure as hell don’t want the tea community to be anything like it.
It’s common for videogame companies to lie and stuff, but in the tea world isn’t, and we shouldn’t support those if we care about where the tea community is going. For liars we already have the health nuts and companies that overcharge for whatever they are selling.
@Felipe Abarzua
There is no need for mental gymnastics to justify their “lie”. The shop has an extensive article that talks about the tea trees in detail. They mention that the age of the tree was NOT scientifically determined, but simply determined by the farmers, based on stories from old villagers and comparing the height and width to a few old tea trees that have been scientifically verified. What is there left to wonder about? People accuse them of being liars when they themselves say that the age is uncertain and merely an estimate made by the farmers and villagers.
‘’Located at 24°16’13.6"N and 101°12’19.6"E, we selected this approximately 1300 year old tree with Master Zhou for its beautiful microclimate. For this 2016 Single Tree pressing, every leaf was hand picked & gently sun dried before being hand pressed by Master Zhou in a custom carved stone mold. This is a chance to taste tea from one of the oldest trees in the Mt Ailao National Forest Preserve. This true single origin tea has a sparkling texture and incense aroma for wonderful aging potential.’’
Edit: They do indeed link the article. My bad. Yet that’s barely enough, because the article is really, really deceiving:
‘’This 1300 year tree’s age is also estimated based on width and height compared to verified trees to get a close approximation.’’
‘’On the left are leaves from a 500-800 year old tree and on the right are the leaves from this 1300 year tree.’’
Those 3 quotes are 3/4 references to the age, the other one is the one you mention, that only says ‘’This year, we are excited and honored to introduce this tree, believed to be at least 1300 years old.’’
Your statement is a stretch, a giant one.
There is no mental gymnastics its as simple as this.
I like their jasmine silver needle, at this point, its the best ive found. If you point me at someone who has better I will gladly order a sample and try it. I also like their oolongs.
Im not going to deny myself something thats not involved in the controversy just to make a statement…
I also support and buy from Crimson lotus,Teavivre, Yunnan sourcing, White2tea, Tealet, among others, so Im not singling them out. I also think Mei Leaf is a good company even though they have done the same thing. Because Don from mei leaf really convinced me to go gong fu brewing and it makes a huge difference.
Here are a few quotes that I copied from the article. I posted it earlier on this thread. Quote #3 talks about a 2500 and 2700 year old tea tree that has been scientifically verified. They use these for comparison also. However, these trees are protected by the government, so they can’t really be used for commercial production.
They have pictures of verified and protected 2700 year old tree in the article. Seeing the picture makes me understand why they’re not crazy for estimating their tree to be 1300 years old (even though they could very well be completely wrong). Also, the fact that they have a few verified and protected trees of 2500+ years old makes it more fathomable that they might actually have trees around 1300 years old as well.
Bonus quote I just found: “Master Zhou goes on to talk about the scarcity of old trees and wonder why more famous (and accessible) regions like Jingmai and Yiwu can sell tea from trees half as old for ten times as much money. Finally, he talks about how these rare trees are on private land, meaning they are passed on for generations and cared for by individual families.”
1: “In the video above, Master Zhou shows us a grove of trees around eight hundred years of age and mentions the difficulty of precisely dating without actually cutting down a tree and counting its rings.”
2: “These trees are dated through a combination of looking at family histories and measuring trunk width and tree height and comparing against known examples, or by looking at trees that have died or been cut down in the same grove and counting their rings.”
3: “We ask Master Zhou how people agree on an age for the tree. He explains that without cutting the tree down, the village has to rely on estimates. They look at the height of the tree and the width of the trunk, which allows them to compare to the height and width of established trees like the 2500 and 2700 year examples verified by scientists. This gives a relative estimate. This 1800 year tree is over ten meters tall from the ground. They can also compare against known ages of nearby trees, like the nearly 2000 year tree that was unfortunately cut down.”
4: “It is at least 10 meters tall, and even from a distance, it towers over the homes of the village that sprang up underneath. (pictures can be seen in the article)”
5: “This 1300 year tree’s age is also estimated based on width and height compared to verified trees to get a close approximation. At over eight meters tall, this tree is a formidable giant.”
6: “These trees can be dated precisely because local residents can remember when the trees were seedlings, or heard stories from their grandparents about when the trees were young.”
7: “Despite the incredible existence of these old tea trees, only a shamefully small handful have been officially measured and documented by botanists, or put under the protection of the national government.” This might explain why the price isn’t as expensive as one might expect.
Well… then, this article isn’t linked on the tea’s page? Is that true?—- Nevermind, it’s the same one. I’m not paying attention today, for some reason.
Also, well, refer to LuckyMe’s chain then, that should be enough to explain, again, what’s so wrong about it.
SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In honor of this thread, I plan to devote the upcoming week to reviewing various teas offered by Verdant. Mental gymnastics will abound, tempers will flare, and things will generally be taken extremely seriously. Step right up! All are welcome!
Funny isn’t it? When ever someone calls out a tea company on its highly exaggerated claims suddenly we get a couple of users with little history on the site suddenly pop up and argue vociferously that we should ignore the bullshit claims because “it tastes good”.
I assume you’re referring to me…?
I am sporadically active on steepster. I read more than I post. I have reviewed teas from multiple tea shops, never one of verdant tea as I have never ordered from them… I just think that the way people accuse them of being liars and cheaters is incredibly unfair and cynical.
If you like it, drink it. I’ve had many good teas from Verdant. However, I did stop purchasing from them after the last age controversy. I won’t lambast someone else for buying from them though.
I have made a point of not buying any of their puerhs due to the age controversy. I figure they use that as an excuse to charge more money. Just like that fake BanZhang they get $75 bucks for is probably not worth that amount when you take away their claim of BanZhang. It just becomes some ordinary plantation tea that should sell for $25 or $30. I did order once from them after the last controversy, but limited it to black teas and a couple of unusual caffeine free teas made from a close relative of the tea plant. I bought the black “tea” and the “sheng” tea herbals and I thought the sheng quite good, did not like the black tea as much. I did question these as to if they were really crassicolumna tea but I had the tea fairly late at night for me and it didn’t keep me awake so I don’t think it was just tea falsely marketed as caffeine free. Apparently this Camellia Crassicolumna is a real relative of the tea plant that is very similar to tea but has no caffeine. I didn’t buy much because it was very expensive. With my insomnia I wish they made decaf puerh but there is apparently no such thing. This Crassicolumna sheng was the closest I could get to it.
I don’t know whether decaf puerh doesn’t exist because the processing of puerh makes it impossible or because the Chinese simply don’t see a reason to make it.
As far as I understand, aging and/or ripening pu reduces the caffeine anyway.
So the only ones you would really get the full caffeine kick would be young raw.
I usually drink Chamomile or Rooibus at night anyway, because I do enjoy the occasional herbal.
I guess when it comes down to it even decaf can contain a small bit of caffeine. The strong emphasis on caffeine/decaf is much more prevalent in the states vs. China, so there’s no real sufficient demand to make a decaf puer over there.
As Ken said, some pu can have naturally reduced caffeine anyway. There’s probably no concrete scientific evidence about how taste is affected but I have a feeling keeping it natural, meaning no decaf, would probably provide optimal taste.
Putting myself in the villagers’ shoes, if I potentially had a gold mine in my backyard, then heck yeah that tree of mine is 800 years old and yep, my grandma told me this.
“There is some resentment that only trees verified by outsiders are recognized by the international community.”
I read this to mean something like, “why is my neighboring village getting new roads, and people are building brand new concrete houses? How are they cashing in and why don’t I have some?” If all I have to do is sell my grandma with tree age stories, I’d do it in a heartbeat.
Hey guys, I haven’t logged into Steepster in several years, but my attention has been recently drawn to a few of these old Verdant controversies…I used to work for Verdant and am close/personal friends of the Duckler’s, so I’m just naming that off the bat. I also traveled with them in China for 2 weeks as a part of a business trip in 2014. I’ve sat in many of their friends houses across China and specifically in Yunnan. I remember trying this specific tea with them late one night.
I know it’s hard for everyone to believe the age of the tree. I know it’s hard to understand why business would be done in this way. Let me just say that the people Verdant works with are first and foremost friends and partners. That really is the case. The people who are vouching for the age of the trees did not begin their relationship with the Duckler’s out of an interest to do business, but rather became friends with David and Lily, as David was interested in their stories and not so much in their tea. I think that’s something that people forget often…Verdant wasn’t created by an American couple who wanted to start a tea company. It began because an American couple was already in love with their culture, and had an interest in collecting folk tales and stories of tea origin myths. They spent a year traveling the countryside on a grant to do this work. They were interested in the farmers years before they ever thought of creating a company.
All that is to say, these are close, personal friends of theirs. I know that – I’ve met them – I’ve been on their land and they’ve made food and tea for me.
That being said, it’s hard for people to imagine a company that operates first and foremost as friends sharing their pride and joy with friends, but this is genuinely the case. If you haven’t experienced it firsthand it’s almost impossible to believe.
David and Lily are extremely passionate about what they do. They are by no means trying to deceive people. I’ve read some of the comments and it seems that some people are suspicious and upset, yet they try the tea and have to admit that it’s wonderful. I say let the tea speak for itself. It certainly has and will continue to do so. Lastly, tea is about joy, about friends, about peace. The Duckler’s are doing something that is pretty crazy…they’re letting you in on tea that would never find its way out of most of the villages. Enjoy it.
Hey Nathaniel, I’m curious, how much Verdant Puer have you stocked up on? Pics or it didn’t happen :)
Ha! Umm…quite a bit. I have some pretty insane stuff from travels and friendship with the Ducklers.
This is the controversy that never seems to die. I always found it ridiculous how certain vendors (e.g., Verdant, Mei Leaf) keep getting raked over coals about the age of tea trees. They may be guilty of trusting unverified information but I don’t believe they tried to scam anyone.
I’m not a puerh drinker so I don’t really pay attention to nor care about any of this. All I know is, I’ve been ordering from them for years and their green tea, dan congs, and laoshan black teas are always top notch and their customer service extremely helpful.
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