Scald burn from tea

I agree with you, it is not the companies fault that the tea scolded the woman. I believe that taking a boiling hot drink into a car has potential tragedy all over it and it’s a risk that you have to think carefully about. Something like that could never happen in the UK as we don’t usually sue for that sort of thing. At the end of the day it was an accident. I mean no ill wishing to this woman but I disagree with that regulations need to be looked at as a result of it.

I absolutely agree with you, uniquity.

I tried to edit that post so it wasn’t one big block of text but I guess it didn’t stick. Sorry for the formatting, but glad to not be the only one. :)

I would not compare this tea incident to the Coffee Lawsuit “common sense” incident. Coffee-to-go is not served at the same temperature as tea-to-go. Tea-to-go is usually freshly-boiled water and a teabag. Coffee is premade and kept at a predetermined temperature—less than boiling, and MUCH closer to an already-drinkable level.

The court case mentioned is Liebeck versus McDonald’s, on the ground that her coffee was MUCH hotter than the normally accepted temperature for serving coffee.

We Canadians laugh at America’s silly, obvious “hot beverage” warnings because we don’t really understand. Liebeck was served coffee to go at 180F; that’s about the same temperature as the tea discussed above. If you have the stomach for it, I’d suggest googling Lieback’s burns (keep in mind they’re /third degree/ [the worst you can get], and to her inner thighs and groin; it’s quite graphic).

“Liebeck’s attorneys discovered that McDonald’s required franchisees to serve coffee at 180–190 °F (82.2–87.8 °C). At that temperature, the coffee would cause a third-degree burn in two to seven seconds. Liebeck’s attorney argued that coffee should never be served hotter than 140 °F (60 °C), and that a number of other establishments served coffee at a substantially lower temperature than McDonald’s. Liebeck’s lawyers presented the jury with evidence that 180 °F (82 °C) coffee like that McDonald’s served may produce third-degree burns (where skin grafting is necessary) in about 12 to 15 seconds. Lowering the temperature to 160 °F (71 °C) would increase the time for the coffee to produce such a burn to 20 seconds. Liebeck’s attorneys argued that these extra seconds could provide adequate time to remove the coffee from exposed skin, thereby preventing many burns. McDonald’s claimed that the reason for serving such hot coffee in its drive-through windows was that those who purchased the coffee typically were commuters who wanted to drive a distance with the coffee; the high initial temperature would keep the coffee hot during the trip.2 However, the company’s own research showed that some customers intend to consume the coffee immediately while driving.”

On top of this, McDonalds was well aware of the burn-risk of its coffee and had been settling hundreds of claims for years without doing anything about it.

Liebeck’s lawsuit has gone done in history as frivolous because of the media’s biased portrayal of it. Today, people STILL argue over the current serving-temperature of coffee, although McDonalds has since lowered theirs considerably.

The reason I don’t think this lawsuit should be directly compared to Tim Horton’s tea-suit is because, again, tea and coffee are prepared very differently. Tea has ALWAYS been a problematic beverage to serve, because they serve you it in the steeping vessel; tea and coffee both require hot temperatures for brewing, but they don’t hand you a french press of still-brewing coffee. What they give you is pre-brewed, and much closer to a drinkable temperature, for your convenience.

Thanks for your comments AJ, but I still feel that when you order a hot tea you should expect it to be a hot tea, and therefore something that can burn you. I feel the same way about coffee, hot chocolate and hot cider as well. When you pay someone else to make something that you know is too hot to go in your mouth right away you should take caution about what you do with it. If you’re not comfortable with the risk of said hot beverage in your vehicle, don’t get a hot drink or maybe use a thermos or travel mug with a proper lid. I know you’re saying that coffee is typically at a lower temperature but as far as I am concerned, both are initially too hot to drink. That is kind of the point and most people I know would not try to drink either until some time has passed for it to cool so I do agree with McDonalds argument that many people that pick up a coffee to go are commuting and likely not to drink it for at least a short time.

We did discuss the McDonalds case elsewhere in this thread I believe and I feel for the woman and the results she suffered with but some relatively simple precautions (on her part, regardless of temperature) would likely have spared her that pain. I work in the document centre of a law firm and have seen enough gruesome images, so I will skip looking for hers. Unfortunately, terrible things happen quite often that could have been avoided with a little precaution or care. It’s pretty upsetting when you see it long enough, but I feel everyone should be responsible for their own personal safety and also do their best for those around them.

I’ve noticed in recent years that all coffee cups have that disclaimer and I have heard (through urban legend at least) that it was the result of an American lawsuit regarding a similar instance. To me, obviously it is a hot beverage. You bought it that way, on purpose. This would be akin to suing Thermos for keeping liquids hot. I am sure it has happened though!

Ha ha. I have heard this same urban legend as well. I think it is sad that is what our society has come too.

Oh god. Same deal where I work. Had a customer ask for a latte made at 180 degrees. I stared at her, and said that our steamers don’t have temperature gauges, but I would steam the milk extra-hot. I made the latte, and steamed the milk until it was probably a second from burning, poured it into her cup and handed it to her with a verbal warning about how hot it was. I literally almost couldn’t hold either the handle of the milk vessel, or her drink when it was done.

She took the cup, drank some immediately, then gave me a “bitch please” look, and said, “Is this 180 degrees?”

Recently looked this up – 180 degrees IS the temperature at which milk scalds. Did she really want scalded milk with no foam in her latte?

People, man.

We get loads of those nutcases at my store too.

Whenever they’re like “NO FOAM AT ALL” I’m always wanting to say “Then get a cold drink!” because milk foams up when it steams. Gah. They’re demanding what’s physically impossible and then go insane over it.

Grr. Remember the days when working at a coffee shop used to be fun? ._. Then all the nutters scared off all the sane customers.

I always ask for no foam, because I hate it when the person making my drink foams the milk up on purpose then spoons it into the top third or quarter of my cup. Soy milk foams well enough, I don’t need extra! :)

I get not wanting a ton of it, but I’m just going to point out that we aerate the milk because for one the screeching sounds gives everyone a headache, but mainly because we’re trained that the milk isn’t properly aerated it’ll taste flat. I personally don’t notice the taste difference, but the lack of a headache certainly is nice! :D

But yeah, I don’t roll my eyes at people who don’t want the dollop on top, but we get idiots who freak out over one bubble who can’t seem to understand the science behind steam + milk = foam.

Personally, I love the foam. To me it’s the best part! :) Otherwise I’d rather get a tea.

LOL. Foam is my BFF’s favourite part too. Yeah, I forgot about the screeching. It’s been a long time since I’ve steamed milk…

Sometimes I think I am glad to live in Canada where we don’t have such lawsuits but it turns out that we do. They just don’t tend to go as far or make very much money. Thanks for the links!

That’s a good thought. I just can’t imagine the government regulating temperature. Coffee shops would be forced out of business if they couldn’t serve reasonably hot coffee/tea/cocoa. And what about restaurants as Lala says?

I find it interesting in the article, it talks about hot water at 60C can cause a 3rd degree burn after 5 seconds of contact. What’s interesting is I am sure this is close to what I wash my dishes with. Also I know air and water temp are different but in the summer sidewalks can get hotter than 60C and the interior of a vehicle gets much hotter. But we don’t go around suing cities for having hot sidewalks or making complaints to car companies about how hot the car got, etc. I wonder why common sense exists in some instance but not with hot drinks.

Because no one can sue the sun. :) If there were money to be made off of suing due to hot sidewalks, sadly, some people would be all over it.

She had it in her lap, and was 79! She had her son with her – who in their right mind lets their 79-year-old mother stir cream and sugar into a burning hot drink in a paper cup in her lap?

I blame her idiot son, not McDonalds for serving a hot drink as a hot bloody drink.

I was on the bus recently, and the bus was forced by construction to stop in the middle of the road and drop people off away from the curb. One woman got off with her mother, who was at LEAST 80, and just said, “Watch your step Mom,” and walked away! The old woman fell, and we needed to call an ambulance.

She wiped your bottom! The least you could do is give a few shits…

Yes, she had the cup of coffee in her lap and they had stopped the car so she could stir in her creamer and sugar. I don’t think they expected it to be so freaking hot that it would cause such an extensive burn. I certainly wouldn’t have. Yeah it is going to be hot, but burn your skin off hot?! MDs should be looking out for the safety of their customers too though. There were many prior cases that the company knew about, but they just didn’t care enough about their customers to fix a known problem. The lady (Stella) had asked them to cover 20,000 of her bills before going to court and they refused. The jury awarded her much more than that.

Daniel, that is sad that the daughter wasn’t looking out for her mom, especially at that age where breaks often mean a downhill spiral towards the end.

Dustin, you realize the temperature of the coffee was no hotter than green tea temperature, right?

Yup. I can’t drink anything that hot without getting burnt. The defense had a really good point on the technicality of it not being a drink when sold. It is a clever and valid argument.